INTP Discussion Forum > Flamethrower > Circumcision

Posted by: KentOhio Jun 25 2004, 06:16 AM

Did any of you know that there's a whole sub-culture out there dedicated to ending circumcision? Here's a link: [http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/]
Some men even go so far as to grow their foreskins back, a process which takes several years. These people are pretty obsessed. Even so, they have a point. I didn't even used to know what an uncircumcised penis looked like. Now I'm pretty mad about having been circumcised as a baby. I'm never going to know what it's like to have the tissue I was born with.
After looking at the page (don't worry; there are drawings but no photos,) What's everyone's opinion?
Men: Are you circumsized? Not? Wish you were one or the other?
Women: Any preferences? Experiences?
Are these activists nuts or are they onto something?

Posted by: utopmk19 Jun 25 2004, 09:08 AM

I am glad to have been circumcised.
I know guys who aren't that have trouble with their foreskins intp/ninja.gif

like cleaning it,and they also are more emabarassed to reveal theirselves to women.
The up side is, that men with foreskins, find sex much more enjoyable.

*Has there been any case where there were malfunctions in this operation,where the child suffered deformities,or is penisless because of the procedure?

Posted by: KentOhio Jun 25 2004, 03:19 PM

[*Has there been any case where there were malfunctions in this operation,where the child suffered deformities,or is penisless because of the procedure? ]

Yes. Complications, according to the webpage below, are 1 to 3 percent. Both deformities and loss of a penis occasionally happen. Also, massive blood loss, infections, and gangrene. In the cases where the penis is lost, doctors give the boy hormone thearapy and make him develop as a "girl." Not pretty. There were even some deaths. This complications page says all that. Only look if you're not squeamish.
[http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html]

Posted by: Vagabond Jun 25 2004, 03:50 PM

QUOTE (KentOhio @ Jun 25 2004, 06:19 PM)

In the cases where the penis is lost, doctors give the boy hormone thearapy and make him develop as a "girl." Not pretty

Hmm. There is more to being a female than just hormones, you know

Posted by: int Jun 25 2004, 04:11 PM

I'm not, have no problems, and sure as hell will not allow it to happen to my kid(s), if they ever exist. My wife agrees - it's a completely senseless, pointless, and unnatural procedure.

I've looked into it about 5 years ago and couldn't find a convincing medical reason for the procedure. Cleanliness sounds more like a personal prblem, and the diseases (and cancers) it was thought to prevent have been debunked, as far as I could tell.

My wife also says she prefers the uncut, for what it's worth.

Posted by: Division56 Jun 25 2004, 05:10 PM

I'm not either. Hippy parents.

Wouldn't want to be either.

Posted by: Claverhouse Jun 27 2004, 12:15 AM

No. ( Coldly ) ( But thanks for asking ).

I consider it profoundly evil, particularly the trauma on a new-born child, as much as the mutilation. Same goes for female circumcision or any other removal of what might be needfull ( appendix, tonsils, docking tails ( in dogs & horses ), all of which used to be common ). Only people with very sick minds could have invented it. ( For jews, after the mohel ( a real-life butcher ) has cut the boy the attending Rabbi lifts the child up and sucks the blood. Religious rites often strike me as odd.

But if it's happened, I really wouldn't worry about it. Still, as Vagabond says, there's more to being female than the obvious bits --- a month or so back a chap in a famous case of bungled circumcision; subsequently forced to grow up as a girl by a legendary mad scientist Dr. Money, finally committed suicide after a singularly tragic life. [ One could frequently get ( still more ) depressed realising what terrible lives some people are at any moment enduring. ]

Well, damn 'em all: I'm a nature-true believer, not nurture. Drive it out with a pitchfork, it will return yet.

Claverhouse intp/ninja.gif

( At school in England, we called it cavalier ( long haired royalist ) & roundhead ( crop-headed puritan rebel ): but that played no real part in my subsequent heavily cavalier beliefs.

Posted by: Slider Jun 27 2004, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (KentOhio @ Jun 25 2004, 06:16 AM)

Women: Any preferences? Experiences?

In the name of science I request two volunteers to research this highly debatable subject. Results will be available in the morning.

Posted by: utopmk19 Jun 27 2004, 02:02 AM

QUOTE

Claverhouse Posted: Jun 27 2004, 12:15 AM

Member

Group: Members
Posts: 53
Member No.: 139
Joined: 15-June 04

No. ( Coldly ) ( But thanks for asking ).

I consider it profoundly evil, particularly the trauma on a new-born child, as much as the mutilation. Same goes for female circumcision or any other removal of what might be needfull ( appendix, tonsils, docking tails ( in dogs & horses ), all of which used to be common ).

Female circumcision is much different, as they remove the clitoris, and this is a very rare practice. Male circumcision does not interfere with pleasure as far as I can tell. It also serves many purposes, such as hygeine and appearence.
It is not fair to compare it to female circumcision which is done for barbaric reasons,usually only by african tribes.

Posted by: Claverhouse Jun 27 2004, 02:51 AM

QUOTE (utopmk19 @ Jun 27 2004, 03:02 AM)

QUOTE

If you're interested in this weird subject:

http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/aldeeb1/

QUOTE

During the UN Seminar in Ouagadougou (Burkina Faso), the majority of participants agreed that the justifications of female circumcision based on cosmogony and those based on religion "must be assimilated to superstition and denounced as such" since "neither the Bible, nor the Koran recommend that women be excised". They recommend ensuring that, in the minds of people, male circumcision and female circumcision be dissociated, the former as a procedure for hygienic purposes, the latter, excision, as a serious form of assault on the women's physical integrity 13. This reasoning is groundless and extremely dangerous. If female circumcision was in the Bible or the Koran, would it be allowed no matter what? And if one decided to put into practice everything that is said in the Bible and the Koran, starting with the law of retaliation?!

QUOTE

For Doctor Gerard Zwang, the reason for making a distinction between the two types of circumcision is simple: most sexologists and most men in charge of information about it are circumcised [Jews]. They oppose any debate on the subject of male circumcision16.

Juridical logic cannot acknowledge the distinction between male and female circumcision, both being the mutilation of healthy organs and consequently damaging the physical integrity of the child, whatever the religious motivations lying underneath17.

and actually:

QUOTE

The Koran mentions neither male nor female circumcision. An extensive interpretation of verse 2:124 shows some barely traceable indication of it:

but nonetheless muslims continue both forms.

QUOTE

This argument can be summed up as follows: Can we imagine a God who demands that his believers be mutilated and branded on their genitals the same as cattle? Doctor Nawal El-Saadawi, an Egyptian woman, herself excised, writes:

If religion comes from God, how can it order man to cut off an organ created by Him as long as that organ is not deceased or deformed? God does not create the organs of the body haphazardly without a plan. It is not possible that He should have created the clitoris in a woman's body only in order that it be cut off at an early stage in life. This is a contradiction into which neither true religion nor the Creator could possibly fall. If God has created the clitoris as a sexually sensitive organ, whose sole function seems to be the procurement of sexual pleasure for women, it follows that He also considers such pleasure for women as normal and legitimate, and therefore as an integral part of mental health 4

etc. Female circumcision is not confined to Africa, nor are those doing this unspeakable thing necessarily 'barbaric' tribespeople. It happens amongst immigrants in Europe & the U.S.

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/fgm/fgm.htm *

largely in Egypt, which is technically Africa, but culturally Middle East, Indonesia, Pakistan etc.

* And with a strong suspicion of mental illness in Western medical practioners used to be done in the 19th century:

QUOTE

The American and British medical professions have in the past practiced FGM to varying degrees. There are reports of clitoridectomies having been performed as recently as the 1950s, to cure nymphomania and melancholia in girls. In the nineteenth century both clitoridectomies and female castration (removal of the ovaries) were practiced by British and American physicians, as cures for melancholia, masturbation, nymphomania, hysteria, lesbianism, and epilepsy. The American medical profession stopped performing clitoridectomies decades ago, only to find itself today confronting the practice in patients from cultures that perform FGM.

For boys, the cleanliness issue is academic, since that depends on personal hygiene; for the loss of pleasure, one would not know what one has lost or gained anyway since if you're fixed at 7 days you can't compare: and an older man, probably a convert to Islam can only rely on fading memory for comparison.

revolted

Claverhouse intp/ninja.gif

( perhaps this thread could be deleted before NGene returns )

Posted by: Division56 Jun 27 2004, 03:04 AM

I could delete it if you guys really want that, but I don't see the point.

I'm not circumsised and wouldn't want to be. I am completely unconvinced of the benefits. I do consider it barbaric and I think it's completely un-nessicary. It was determined to be required by a few quacks at the turn of the century in this country and 31% of parents are opting out of it now.

Anyway, it comes with a lot of benefits you cut guys have no idea of. intp/ninja.gif

Divis-

Posted by: Horger Jul 5 2004, 03:13 PM

I'm circumcised and I like my wang the way it is.

Posted by: shaytana Jul 5 2004, 06:10 PM

I am not a guy but that doesn't matter. I don't care if my (non existant) guy is cut or not, as long as he lets me draw little faces on it and call it my little man I am happy