INTP Discussion Forum > People and Psychology > INTP testing as INTJ

Posted by: NGene Feb 8 2004, 06:32 PM

I think there's a problem with the MBTI (ok, some people would say there are many problems with the MBTI, but now I'll concentrate on one only). I've read that it's common for INTPs to test as INTJs, and I'm pretty sure it's common for other P types to test as Js as well.

It's no wonder, because we live in a J-dominated society where J-like behavior is encouraged and appreciated. Many Ps are taught to behave like Js, especially if one or both of the parents are Js.

This confusion in the MBTI tests might be fixed by wording some of the questions a bit differently. Questions like "Do you like to plan your actions," "By Monday, do you know what you'll be doing Saturday night," "Do you make to-do lists," and so on, are the ones where many people living in today's modern society will say yes, no matter if they're J or P or if they're told to strip off their "at work" personality.

So, questions asking about one's behavior aren't that accurate, because the main difference between Js or Ps is their desire of closure or lack of it. That's why questions like "Do you have difficulty making decisions," "Do you like to keep your options open," "Do you enjoy making to-do lists," "Do you hate to-do lists," and so would be much more accurate.

Posted by: Vagabond Feb 8 2004, 11:41 PM

QUOTE (NGene @ Feb 8 2004, 08:32 PM)

Questions like "Do you like to plan your actions," "By Monday, do you know what you'll be doing Saturday night," "Do you make to-do lists," and so on, are the ones where many people living in today's modern society will say yes, no matter if they're J or P

Well... not really, Gene... I live in the real world arlright, and I was a "no" in all those questions you are mentioning... because, if I leave my work attitude aside, I do not plan my actions, I never know what I will be doing in five days from now and (God forbid!) I never, I mean EVER make "to do" lists... I think the catch is to do just that - leave your professional attitude aside... like, putting your everyday self in a different compartement than your office self and judge them seperately...

In my point of view, the reason why many INTPs type as INTJs is that those two types are actually very much alike, sometimes they can be so much alike that you can only tell them apart judging from their wish (or not) for closure... I see this in myself; there are so many things in the INTJ profile that sound just like me, that I was puzzled; but this closure thing was certainly not me. I could probably say that this, in its many ways of expression, was the only thing that would convince me that this was not me.

Posted by: misspadfoot Feb 16 2004, 06:48 PM

I think you are right, Gene. Many people make to-do lists whether the habit suits their personality or not. But a true Perceiver never follows through with them

For me, there's never, EVER been any doubt in my mind that I'm a P. Consider this highly distinguished record: I was voted messiest girl in my 8th grade class. I have severe ADD. And every single negative report card comment I've ever gotten was something along the lines of, "Michelle is very bright but she needs to get more organized. Her assignments are frequently late."

I guess that's not something I should be proud of. But I've come to accept it as part of who I am, as cliché as it sounds. My ultra-J mom is always irritated when I say things like, "I don't know when I'm going to do my English homework, can't you leave me alone and let me figure it out later?" or "No, I don't do planning."

The problem is, most P's try to conform to the J mindset. Maybe it works for some of them. But I don't think most of them realize or admit that they are P's, because becoming a J is something we are encouraged to strive for. As for me, I'm a round peg and I don't fit into the square J-hole. Embrace your Perception, everyone!

Posted by: Chamoisee Mar 6 2004, 07:32 PM

Hmm, well, I make to-do lists, obsessively. Otherwise I get sidetracked and forget what it was I wanted to do, because my mind wanders a lot. I tend to follow them, though I may not do all the things on the list. It's sort of a guideline.

I've only tested INTJ once, all the other times have been INTP. I am and always have been messy except when I'm feeling desolate, in which case I make my surroundings bare and desolate as well. I have a terrible time with decisions, especially if pressured to decide right now. If the right choice resonates, then it's easy. Otherwise I vacillate a lot.

To be honest I am still not clear enough on the differences between INTJ's and P's, and it gets more difficult when a person is weak in the j or p.

Posted by: Odyssey Mar 6 2004, 07:54 PM

I'll take a functional analysis approach, according to my own understanding, and see where the differences lie between INTP and INTJ. I assume a basic knowledge of the theorized Jungian ordering of each - if not, check out personalitypage.com.

My father's a self-reported INTJ; he has outstanding introverted intuition - he gets hunches/visions that come true quite a lot, as well as vivid dreams. We swear he's psychic. His logical judgment seems oriented outwards onto the world like an ENTJ, and thus he has a lot of the outward dominance and I'm-right attitude ("do this like this, not like that") and straight-forwardness, even more than can be explained away by the "alpha male" role.

He's also exceptionally sensitive to uncomfortable external sensory details (light, sound) - a Highly Sensitive Person, no doubt. Perhaps 'tis explainable by his "inferior" (and thus raw and negative) extraverted sensing.

In contrast, (from what I observe) an INTP's intuition is more outward - most intuitive ideas come spontaneously by being engaged with the world or other people, rather than consulting dreams or subconscious visions. Internal thinking generates ideas also, but more commonly from a sudden connection made in the midst of logical processing, rather than totally out-of-the-blue flashes. And INTPs aren't likely to be pushy! I'm not absolutely certain, but I think we INTPs want control (a major side-effect of thinking) over ourselves and the private spheres of life, but not so much over others or the public realm.

INTPs are sensitive to external details/ sense-impressions when we're focused on them (like listening to music) but we're not likely to be sensitive to details of light and sound if we're not paying attention. That's from my own experience.

~Odyssey

Posted by: Chamoisee Mar 6 2004, 08:11 PM

QUOTE

My father's a self-reported INTJ; he has outstanding introverted intuition - he gets hunches/visions that come true quite a lot, as well as vivid dreams. We swear he's psychic.

I do that. It happens all the time.

QUOTE

His logical judgment seems oriented outwards onto the world like an ENTJ, and thus he has a lot of the outward dominance and I'm-right attitude ("do this like this, not like that") and straight-forwardness, even more than can be explained away by the "alpha male" role.

I tend to think I've figured out the best way to do something, but tend not to push it onto others. I'm not dominant.

QUOTE

He's also exceptionally sensitive to uncomfortable external sensory details (light, sound) - a Highly Sensitive Person, no doubt. Perhaps 'tis explainable by his "inferior" (and thus raw and negative) extraverted sensing

That's me. Noises drive me up a wall. Even the <i>memery</i> of unpleasant noises, such as someone flossing their teeth, make me cringe. Certain textures feel the same way and bother me, too.

QUOTE

In contrast, (from what I observe) an INTP's intuition is more outward - most intuitive ideas come spontaneously by being engaged with the world or other people, rather than consulting dreams or subconscious visions. Internal thinking generates ideas also, but more commonly from a sudden connection made in the midst of logical processing, rather than totally out-of-the-blue flashes.

I do both. In fact, the flashes on insight are probably a little more common. I often don't grasp a concept until something clicks within me, and then I know it like the back of my hand.

QUOTE

And INTPs aren't likely to be pushy! I'm not absolutely certain, but I think we INTPs want control (a major side-effect of thinking) over ourselves and the private spheres of life, but not so much over others or the public realm.

This is me. People always accuse me of being spineless or not assertive enough when in fact I simply lack the desire to oppress other people with my will.

QUOTE

INTPs are sensitive to external details/ sense-impressions when we're focused on them (like listening to music) but we're not likely to be sensitive to details of light and sound if we're not paying attention. That's from my own experience.

It's impossible for me to ignore unpleasant sounds.

I wonder if it's possible to have both Ti and Ni??

Posted by: Vagabond Mar 7 2004, 12:38 AM

QUOTE (Chamoisee @ Mar 6 2004, 10:11 PM)

I wonder if it's possible to have both Ti and Ni??

Hello there

Nice to have another unsure creature on the INTP - INTJ issue on board... I thought I shouldn't quote your entire post, but I sign up for it as well intp/ninja.gif

Posted by: NGene Mar 7 2004, 06:28 PM

QUOTE (Chamoisee @ Mar 6 2004, 08:11 PM)

I wonder if it's possible to have both Ti and Ni??

Hmm, why not? If it's possible, I guess you're then either an INTP with a well developed Ni, or an INTJ with a well developed Ti.

Or there's something fundamentally wrong with Jung's theory. Or the MBTI. Or both.

Posted by: Metimbo=IMMT Mar 8 2004, 02:39 PM

I concur. Some of that matches me as well.

Specifically, the visons. I have seen visions at key points in my life and they have always been right as far as I know.

External stimulus such as light and noise, bother the crap out of me. Someone walking down the hall, a truck passing by, etc will grab my attention and SERIOUSLY make me mad. I just want to attack whatever is making the noise or bothering me.

But, I am defienately not a leader and like to give people information and let them figure is out on their own will as little guideance from me as possible.
~TIm

Posted by: flan2dave Mar 9 2004, 05:20 PM

They say it is normal and healthy for introverts to have split judging and perceiving scores. My scores turn out to be even, tilted slightly towards perceiving, however I don't see many judging qualities in myself. For example, the idea of thoughts that seem psychic in nature is pretty foreign to me.

Posted by: Odyssey Mar 10 2004, 07:03 AM

QUOTE

They say it is normal and healthy for introverts to have split judging and perceiving scores.

Clarify "they" please? (One good(?) thing about my history teacher is that she has trained us kids to be alert B.S. detectors. No "broad sweeping generalizations" and no vague references allowed!)

Interesting about the visions BTW - by the definition of a vision as a prophetic flash of the future, I can't really relate. The closest things I have to "visions" are either self-constructed images of the ideal, or a vivid idea about a possibility. They're the kinds of things that don't come true unless I make them come true. Well, except for two ghosts I saw, but I blame those on tricks of my mind when I was sleepy.

My INTJ Dad however, tends to have visions about things outside of his control (e.g. who's about to call on the phone, having a premonition about the house suddenly flooding*, and other stuff) that come true - or if he saw something about the past, things that have been true. o_o

~Odyssey

(*time for a major side-thought! That flooding was strange. Briefly: Dad had a dream about a little boy (not me) being mad that we were going to move out of the house soon. In the dream the boy "flooded" the house. The next few days it rained, and though we never had significant water-leakage problems before (and it usually rained a lot there), water somehow leaked through all 4 sides of the house and the roof. I remember trying sleep with at least four pans and bowls collecting drips around my room. Not fun. Water also flooded the underground basement, for the first time... And that one house was haunted in other ways, too. Kindof annoying, but nothing harmful until that last incident, which destroyed the property value o_O Luckily we had a deal where the company had to buy the house if it wouldn't sell!

Now we buy new houses where people haven't fallen out of windows ^_^ ; we found out later that a boy had fallen out of a window in the flooded-house, but supposedly he just broke his arm, so I don't know why it be haunted if he didn't die... Hmph! I want to know.

I miss seeing ghosts though... the two I've seen were all glowey and white and they looked cool, and I even saw one walk through a wall as I stared!

LOL 'just had to share that.)

Posted by: flan2dave Mar 10 2004, 08:48 PM

I believe that information comes from the book Personality Type: An Owner's Manual by Lenore Thomson. For an example of how this idea applies, take an INTP or INFP. If they are too focused on their primary function, introverted thinking or feeling, their life would lack balance. In addition, their perceiving tendency wouldn't encourage them to spend the energy to extrovert, unless it supports the aims of their dominant funciton. However, this strategy wouldn't go to well in our culture, which requires at least some orginazation, planning, and networking. Often we think of these things as judging tendencies. While taking a personality type test, we might confuse our fulfillment of basic obligations as a preference for judging, resulting in an even score. This is not so much the fault of the test taker: many of the perceiving versus judging questions are placed in the context of our society, a flaw which is brought to attention right in this thread.

However, this largely presumes your frame of mind has some dificulty making the distinction between the meaning of perceiving and judging because of our cultural values and biases. In my opinion, the best way to figure out your type is to ignore the test altogether.

Posted by: icenine0 Mar 20 2004, 08:49 AM

I've run into the INTJ vs. INTP conflict several times, and it quite often drives me bonkers --- especially since many INTJ profiles appear to be of the "INTJ = INTP + self-confidence" variety.

"Yes," authors say, "an INTP is content to merely design a system, whereas the equally creative INTJ actually translates his ideas into substance."

Balderdash, I say. intp/alttongue.gif

The frequent INTP/J ambiguity has lead me to investigate http://www.socionics.org, an alternative branch off the Jungian trunk that addresses and resolves the http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm. Keep in mind, a Socionics INTJ is an MBTI INTP and vise versa. I'll explain in detail below.

In the Socionics system, Perception/Judgement can be either Introverted/Extraverted in accordance with type, rather than always being Extraverted, as in MBTI. To clarify, think of the questions MBTI asks to determine P/J:

"Do you like things decided or open?"
"Do you like your life scheduled or free and spontaneous?"
etc.

These questions almost invariably point P/J toward the outside world. A more free-spirited person is generally more P, and a more decisive person is generally more J. Fair enough, but not consistent with Jungian psychology.

In Jung's original theory, a person's "P/J"ness is determined by his/her primary function, which may be Introverted OR Extraverted. Under Jung, if a person has a "Rational Function" (Ti, Te, Fi, or Fe) as his/her primary, then he/she is J. Contrarily, if a person has an "Irrational Function" (Ni, Ne, Si, or Se) as his/her primary, the person is P. Jung's original theory allowed for Judgement or Perception in both physical and introspective worlds (i.e. a Primary Introverted Thinker is just as judgemental as a Primary Extraverted Thinker, but in an Introverted Context rather than an Extraverted Context).

If things were flip-flopped, and MBTI tested for Introverted P/J, the questions might be like:

"Are you very self-critical?" Yes - J / No - P
"Do you spend a lot of time organizing your thoughts?" Yes - J / No - P
etc.

Okay, so, to get to the point:

Under MBTI, J/P = Attitude toward physical, outside world.

Under Socionics/Jung, J/P = Attitude toward preferred world.

Therefore,
MBTI INTP = Introverted Thinking (Rational) as Primary = Perceptive /w Regard to Outside World, but Judgemental /w Regard to Internal (Preferred) World = http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/intj.htm
and
MBTI INTJ = Introverted Intuition (Irrational) as Primary = Judgemental /w Regard to Outside World, but Perceptive /w Regard to Internal (Preferred) World = http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/intp.htm

So, under Socionics, the definitions for all Introverted Types are reversed, and, therefore, more consistent with Jung's original theory. I also find the Socionics INTP and INTJ much more distinguishable from one another. Socionics is, unfortunately, also cluttered up with some V.I. (Visual Identification) bologna that appears quite unscientific. Ah well.

Oh, by the way, I'm icenine0, I'm an INTP, and I stumbled across this forum recently. I hope to have some engaging discussion with you folks.

Posted by: entovert Mar 20 2004, 12:21 PM

"Icenine", eh. I take it you're familiar with Vonnegut.

Welcome.

Posted by: icenine0 Mar 20 2004, 05:50 PM

Thanks, entovert. I figured someone would know the reference right off the bat.