| INTP Discussion Forum > Flamethrower > Political Leanings |
| Posted by: relaxo Jan 27 2004, 02:18 PM |
| I actually hate politics. Which is why I am interested in it. I am curious to see if people of a similar personality type are of similar political persuasion. One thing that makes me feel I am "different" from others are my political beliefs. So please, post what you think about politics. (you first, me too afraid...) |
| Posted by: shadowsoul Jan 27 2004, 02:53 PM |
| I'm completely and utterly uninterested in politics. I think every friggin political system sucks more or less so I usually don't support any of them. I've lost my hope a long time ago. Sometimes I stick my neck out and participate in a fiery political debate. When I do so, I choose my view according to what I've eaten that morning. I must admit I'm somehow interested in seeing what political beliefs people of certain personality type have. So... we'll wait and see... |
| Posted by: irishwhistle Jan 27 2004, 10:11 PM |
| I'm conservative in my beliefs but I'm registered non-partisan because I don't want to feel responsible for the actions of a political party. Let's face it, you say you're a member of a certain party and you're expected sometimes to account for a list of stupid things they did while in the majority, and I don't even keep up with what they do. When I did know, half the time they had done something that made me feel like a traitor to the belief system of my own that I thought was shared by the party. Finally I decided to vote for who seems best whether their likely to win or not. I don't want to play stupid games of voting for someone you don't like just to keep someone of the "wrong" party from winning. Here's to throwing our votes away and leaving the polling site with a clear conscience. Fact is, I'd have to know them pretty well before I'd even begin to believe any candidate was honest, anyway. But I do my best. |
| Posted by: Odyssey Jan 28 2004, 06:06 AM |
| The closest I really get to politics is to be curious about the theories and trends shaping political history. That's pretty interesting. As for current politics... Wow, I'm naive. I have no time (to be more accurate, with my goals to chase after, I choose to have no time) to learn more than the basics of What's Going On in the world. Besides, who cares about the fate of the Earth and Humanity when there are much more important things like... trying to memorize a 10-minute literature presentation. LOL. It's silly how the American educational institution often distracts us from real-world concerns... But, if I were to guess, I would probably lean towards something liberal. I'm pretty iconoclastic in that I like to bump out old ways of doing things to try new ways. Constantly. (That's been consistent since childhood, so it's probably not only teenage rebellion thing.) I gravitate towards the unusual and liberal, and I suppose in this respect I have a sizeable dose of ENTP in me. Perhaps it's risky, but I like to give new [political?] ideas a chance to see how they turn out. ~Odyssey [teenage male IN(F)P] |
| Posted by: relaxo Jan 28 2004, 01:45 PM |
| "trying to memorize a 10-minute literature presentation. LOL. It's silly how the American educational institution often distracts us from real-world concerns..." hey that is real world. the ability to memorize and speak in front of others is way more relevant to your life than what is going on in international politics. If other nations spent time teaching their kids these type of things the world might be a bit better. |
| Posted by: Vagabond Jan 28 2004, 11:08 PM | ||
...you really mean this...?!?! Good God NO! If all my options to educate were about me memorising stuff and repeating in public, I would probably choose illeteracy instead Besides, what is going on in the inside is what really matters and not how things appear to be. International politics are about the real world. And anyways... I would surely want to know in what way my governement is using my nation's power on the outside. I would really care if a governement would endanger my country's well-being or not by their international moves, and I would really really care to make sure my governement are using their power to create and not to destroy. All in all, I would want to know what my governement do with the power we give them a whole deal more than memorising and repeating. It is not such a great mental process after all. Understanding the world you live in, is. As for my political inclinations, I can't really tell. I try to keep an eye on whatever is going on in my country and in the world in general, but I don't trust politicians in these days. I have my own ideas and opinions, they just have no representation in the official political arena |
| Posted by: Odyssey Jan 29 2004, 11:36 PM | ||||||
Maybe we could solve all this by doing both... studying (inter)national politics, writing a presentation, and then memorizing and presenting it. Then one learns "public" speaking, opinion-forming skills, writing, memorization, and real-world politics all at once. =) ~Odyssey |
| Posted by: relaxo Jan 30 2004, 01:33 PM |
| I didn't say people should only be taught to memorize and present! Whether we like it or not, memorization skills are one of the most important sets of skills you have. Public presenting also has it's benefits. Learning these are more relevant to your personal life than international politics. Internation politics would be good to learn, but most of us have no practical use for it in our everyday lives. Now having said that, I admit that I feel I have a better understanding of the world by be interested in these things. But it serves nothing beyond satisfying my interests. Which is good of course. But even after knowing a bunch of this junk, I can not change the way things are done in the world. And if I could, nations would be teaching their kids things like memorization skills and public speaking rather than teaching them that this land over here is ours not their's, or these people are our enemies, here's how to fire a gun, etc... |
| Posted by: Vagabond Jan 31 2004, 12:01 AM | ||
OK... here is what I meant... you have to get a general idea of what is going on in the outside world, not to be taught into fanatism and the "mine-yours-his" thing. I agree with you on that. But I would not wake up a morning and find myself caught up in the middle of a war that I never suspected the night before, for instance. Besides, knowledge cannot hurt, even if its object it can't be changed As far as memorising is concerned... I just consider it to be a mean, not a goal. I mean, what is there to be taught of...? It is a skill, a tool, and so is the presentation one... I don't really disagree with you, I just find your perspective strange (in the sense that it is different than mine... no insult meant...) By the way, I can't imagine that shooting a gun or ennemosity among nations are taught in many schools out there (I have to say this... if, by any chance, I sound aggressive or absolute, trust me I am not. I am on a foreign language and on written dialogue... not at my very best |
| Posted by: shadowsoul Feb 2 2004, 12:24 PM | ||
Yes. You said it well. Memorising and presentation skills are very useful tools but it does only harm if you think the mere tool is the goal. |
| Posted by: intpgeekandahalf Feb 13 2004, 10:49 PM |
| here's something that has been bugging me for the last few weeks. I'm not really into politics either, but I do like to make a well researched thought out vote when I do vote. anyway, on to my rant. I've been listening to NPR pretty much every morning and I expect that they have a liberal slant. But I am sick and tired of hearing about how much a candidate can beat or not beat President Bush instead of hearing about what the candidate will really do for the country. I don't want to just vote for someone because he or she will be able to beat Bush, and yet they do a lousy job at running the country. But I have heard some distrubing things come form people along the campaing trails. Things like, "I was going to vote for so and so because I think he has some good ideas and would be a good leader..but instead I've decided to vote for so and so because he can beat Bush!" Yikes..I know this is politics..but this irks me...is America just looking for another looser to put in the Whitehouse or what? Maybe America's SFJ side is coming out very strongly here? "lets pick someone who is charasmatic and charming over someone who knows what they are doing...and since so and so is really popular he must be the one to vote for!..and since Bush is not popular he must be the one not to vote for" ok,thats my rant. Thanks for listening ya'll (I'm pretty moderate by the way) |
| Posted by: irishwhistle Feb 14 2004, 08:22 AM |
| Hear, hear! And people complain that we're all too cynical. I wonder why! |
| Posted by: relaxo Feb 14 2004, 03:22 PM |
| Sometimes it makes sense to do strategic voting, if you can live with yourself. Here in Canada we have a habit of voting out governments rather than voting them in. Someone is in power, you don't like them so you vote for someone else. That's probably a more difficult thing to do in the USA with only 2 main parties. In Canada we have traditionally (and this isn't true over the last 10 years, and oddly we've had the same gov't for 10 years) 2 main parties and a strong 3rd party. That seems to be the way for the "British" cultures. I know Europe is totally different, I think Italy has what, 55 politial partes that get at least 1% of the vote each? |
| Posted by: birdsnest Feb 29 2004, 12:04 AM |
| Democrat and I am passionate about it. PS, I am editing to add a note to Metimbo: Yes, I work full time for the US Government. But, also, I was once on welfare, I once had no job skills, was a single mother, and trying to put myself through school and sustain my child, I was responsible to every bone in my body so I could move UP, and get back to work. I have since earned a BA in Accounting, and work full time of course. So, coming from every financial perspective, from the most affluent city where the median cost of a home is 600,000, on the West coast, to the bottom of what I consider the bottom, in the Southeast, homeless, working for fast food restaurants to get by. So, I have seen every angle, the top and the bottom. Unfortunately, from my viewpoint, right now in Govt. there is so much political agenda going on in, and I see them sweep changes through on people, and not give them any say about it. That type of power is scarey to me. Things are hush hush, and nobody has a say but them. I really feel is that at some point, every human being needs assistance from the government. Perhaps its from Social security, or unemployment when you lose your job, or medicaid, or health care if you get sick, if housing assistance, or if someone becomes homeless through no fault of their own, if a company folds, and the economy is awful, for instance, rather than let them die on the streets, if the government steps in and has programs to help people back up, I feel thats very much worth paying taxes for. I think that is what conservatism aims to do, offer nobody a hand up when they need it the most. That would be a country I would not want to work for. I feel that nobody is so high and mighty that nothing could ever happen to them. I feel that if the system is set up to where when you REALLY need it, you can get help, then that is worth my paying taxes for. What has happened to our social security, that we worked so hard for all these years? Instead of giving it back to the very people that have paid taxes, its being spent on the war on terrorism. I don't think that is in the best interest of a countrys people, after all, we are the ones that have paid $ in for our own security, and instead, the system is taking away what we've worked for, almost seems like slavery is alive and well, and we don't even know it. |
| Posted by: Heretic Feb 29 2004, 06:57 AM | ||
IMO, that's really not that scary. I'm learning about the presidential candidates so I can make an informed decision on who to vote for and I really hope that candidate emerges as strong runner, but quite honestly, if it all comes down to it I will vote for whoever I think can beat Bush. It would be optimal if we all felt comfortable voting for our candidate regardless of his standing in the race, but given the last presidential election, I think many people are scared into voting for the front runner lest Bush have another term. That so many people recognize what a terrible leader he is strikes me as at least one positive thing revealed in our presidential election... maybe not the best positive thing we could hope for... but at least one. |
| Posted by: relaxo Mar 1 2004, 01:35 PM |
| oh I'll add a comment here. If I were American I would be torn bewteen voting libertarian or Bush. I'd vote Bush to make sure the war on terror continues. And the tax cuts. |
| Posted by: int Mar 4 2004, 03:32 AM |
| I love listening to to talk radio. A host will say something that triggers an arguement in my head, which leads to a meandering thought process that always leads me down interesting paths. I'll listen when working around the house or driving. My wife thinks I'm nuts. But that's no surprise. In the end I'm a lbertarian leftist, I guess. |
| Posted by: Metimbo=IMMT Mar 4 2004, 08:41 PM |
| Oh my God!!! (lol, had to say it!) Big time righty here. Can't stand democrats personally. The idea used to be good back in the 50's and 60's, but since then the party has changed. Now, it has turned into, "how can we take more of your money and give it to people that haven't earned it and how can we increase the types of people that are to get said money?". Grrr. If anyone here works fulltime and makes a decent living and is a US democrat, I'll eat their hat. There is no way that 30% taxes on MY INCOME is ok. THEN, I have to pay 9.25% on everything I BUY with MY TAXED MONEY!!!! Go figure out how much of MY EARNED INCOME I am really bringing home. Sorry to vent. Money is tight right now or emotions wouldn't be this involved I am assuming. Debate. ~Tim <EDIT> I don't like Republicans either. I am Conservative. Meaning, I want less government and more personal responsibilities for the people.</EDIT> |
| Posted by: Metimbo=IMMT Mar 5 2004, 02:36 PM |
| Birdsnest- Where's your hat? LOL I just think that the Government spends our money horribly on the whole. It would take $200 to feed someone a $5 meal for example because of bureaucracy. Also, it is almost impossible to get a program removed if it is proven to be uneffective. Take sex education and welfare as examples. Study after study has shown (no, I don't know which ones and I don't care to find them at this time) that sex education actually INCREASES the sex that young people have and that welfare actually KEEPS POOR PEOPLE POOR in most situations. Now, I'm not saying, obviously that will be the case in all people or situations, but on a whole I think you would find that is going to be your answer. Have you personally used some of these tools to your advantage to better yourself and use them as a crutch during hard times? Yes, it seems you have and I commend you for using the properly and not being a lazy theif that continues to steal from others by fradulant claims. Now, if these programs were run by a non-profit organization, for example, they would be exposed to the checks and balances of the economy to be effective and efficient. I think that, unfortunately, people would not contribute to them willingly, that's why I say people need to take more responsibility in taking care of those around them, needy and not. Also, as a Christian (no I don't want to debate religion) I beleive that the Church (People that go to church and those that are Christians) should be doing more to take care of those around them that are needy and that it is their job, and not the Governments job to take care of people who are sick or unfortunate. My $.01 ~Tim |
| Posted by: birdsnest Mar 13 2004, 11:09 PM |
| In the mean time, I did find a link that has an opinion by a Harvard professor that had GB as a student many moons ago. Its the "Gilded Age" article. http://www.glocom.org/ |
| Posted by: relaxo Mar 14 2004, 04:31 PM | ||
(I've edited my original reply, it seemed a bit to INTJ which I sometimes lapse into) It is funny that I originally disliked this George Bush guy 4 years ago, and the more critism that is made of him the more I like him. Perhaps because I am not American, I see very little difference in the Democrats and Republicans. The things the Democratic complain about can be used right back at them whenever they are in power. Wasn't welfare made more restrictive under Clinton? Clinton bombed Serbia. Clinton invaded Kosov (Serbia) without UN approval. Clinton first started the process of outsting Sadam. Clinton launched missiles into Afghanistan to destroy Al Qaeda. Comments such as: "only those Wall Street "money gamers" and self-dealing "management aristocrats" of Corporate America are dizzy with their huge bonuses, padded salaries, and self-dealt stock options." can be dismissed. This type of comment has been used for centuries. The same old complaint. Other people are making money. I ignore jealousy. Also it is a lie. Those people are not the only ones making money in the USA. And if they were, I would still be happy for them. "The remaining hard working Americans cannot eat "GDP."" This is a misleading statement. There is no mass starvation or food problem in the USA. Nobody needs to eat GDP under the current economy conditions. Also if people are hard working then they have enough money to eat. "The U.S. has widening income gap between a few "haves" and many "have-nots."" If absolute poverty is say $0 a year and wealth keeps increaing every year then the limit to wealth is infinite. Therefore there will always be an increasing income gap between those who do not work and those that do. "Just to keep up with her population growth, the U.S. needs to create about 230,000 jobs a month" 230000X12 = 2.76 million jobs/year population of USA is aproximately 280 million. growth rate is less than 1% /year. =approximately 2.8 million people/year the math looks good except that children and retired people do not need jobs, and not everybody is looking for work (like students) also "Last month, however, the U.S. only created 115,000 jobs." "The unemployed rate of January this year was 5.6%, dipping only 0.1 percentage point." so less than 230000 jobs were created and the unemployment rate went down. obviously the math doesn't add up, even with people who have "given up" looking for work and people having "settle" with part time and lower paying jobs. Also 5.6% is very low unemployement by world standards. Amazing job. That would be assuming that the government actually controls the economy. The day Bush was elected the economy suddenly went to hell, not buying it. I can reverse this statement too. Let's pretend a Democrat is in power. "The unemployment rate this year was 5.6%, dropping an amazing .1 in just a month. By the end of the year with democrats creating 115000 jobs a month the unemployment rate should be down to 4.5%. And there is also the phenomena of people jumping back into looking for work as the economy prospers therefore the rate should actually be lower than it shows." "In my class, he declared that "people are poor because they are lazy." He was opposed to labor unions, social security, environmental protection, Medicare, and public schools. To him, the antitrust watch dog, the Federal Trade Commission, and the Securities Exchange Commission were unnecessary hindrances to "free market competition." To him, Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal was "socialism."" This statement might appeal to some, but to me it makes me trust Bush even more. "This was the same kind of income distribution that the U.S. built during the McKinley-Gilded Age." ...which led to more and more prosperity and jobs...I'd be interested in seeing unemployment rates around that period of time. "And America embarked on her imperialistic expansions of colonising Cuba, Panama, and the Philippines." ...all of which are so much better off now without America. What's their unemployement rate? Actually I am curious as to this colonisation. I don't recall Americans moving to these nations in mass proportions and the USA claiming them as territories. Obviously the author's intention is to somehow equate colonisation (which is suppoedly bad) with Bush and the military invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. However, I can't imagine Americans moving in their masses to either country. It also seems that those two countires will indeed be independent states. It seems to me that most people are interested in intentions rather than results. |
| Posted by: relaxo Mar 16 2004, 07:22 PM |
| "Another explanation for low job creation is the nature of the U.S. Labour Department's employment survey, which surveys 400,000 employers but excludes self-employment. By that measure, 718,000 jobs have vanished since the end of the recession in November, 2001. The rival survey of households, which tracks 60,000 homes, suggests that 2.1-million jobs have been created over the same period -- a discrepancy that some analysts said is the result of strong jobs growth among small businesses and the self-employed." Who can you believe when it comes to stats? You really have to decide if there is an ulterior motive when someone presents stats. |
| Posted by: int Mar 17 2004, 06:13 AM |
| For the sake of info... I decided to quit my job once I graduated college. After surveying the job market, and deciding I didn't want what was out there, I started my own company. My current status leads me to fill out those types of surveys honestly, in my struggling manner, so I can see that line of thought. |
| Posted by: INTrPosr May 3 2004, 06:23 PM |
| Straight up centrist, from taking a political test months ago. Jack |
| Posted by: Lovechild May 12 2004, 07:03 PM |
| Socialist with a strong preference for green parties. |