Well, picture yourself with your arms and legs tied so tightly that the circulation is being cut-off to your limbs. You have 3 - 4 guys that absolutely hate you and are going to make you pay for something that you have nothing to do with, but that really doesn't matter to them. Then one of them pulls out a big knife grabs you by the hair, and as you beg for your life, begins to cut your head off in a sawing like motion kind of like carving a thanksgiving day turkey (No, not a hacking off like you may think, but a nice 2 minutes of agony). Cause they have to first cut through the skin, as you beg, then into the muscle, as you beg louder and scream, then they reach the jugular and blood spurts everywhere, you scream louder... Then, they work there way around the front to your throat start and on your larynx to silent your screams. You begin to gurgle and choke on your own blood. You feel life slip away... pain subsides the screams lesson, the cutting continues. You slip away...away...away... away… away…

That's why people are upset. I understand your poor attempt at humor, but look at it from that point of view and maybe just maybe you can understand. Go cut your finger with a knife and recoil in pain. Run to the bathroom and wash it with soap and water. Put some peroxide on it, Neosporin, and finish it off with a band-aid.

Maybe if they had a bunch of slugs crawl on the guy you could sympathize. (Yea, I read your Journal). Or if it were a hate crime involving another Gay Atheist, you'd be in a tizzy. If someone made a joke about it you'd never let this post die.

To me its some poor guy being cut up buy some pretty sick bastards. Just like the Iraqi prisoners getting molested by some sick bastards. Is there reason for it? None that I can see.

No matter what context they're supposed to be in, stupid ass comments like yours are just as useless as the person who makes them.

Jay

Or maybe gather your stuff and get out from where you have no business being...?

I agree with Jay; this poor guy was cut up buy some pretty sick bastards, just like the Iraqi prisoners got molested by some sick bastards. War is no excuse for either case (I won't even get into whether it is a war for the right reasons or not - irrelevant); I think it just proves that some humans (I hope for a low precentage, but then again I am not so sure) have never evolved out of the primitive instincts we had when we were monkeys (or whatever), they are just faking 'civilised' for social reasons - when they have the opportunity, their real nature jumps out. By the way, I think that the theory wanting all humans repressing these instincts which they assume will pop out on anyone given the appropriate circumstances, is a bunch of crap.

http://intp.1.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=144&hl=stanford

So...? I still think it is crap. Or maybe the ones that don't get transformed into animals are the exceptions of the rule...? What you linked is just an experiment, which obviously demolishes my hopes for a low percentage, but nothing more.

Well, I have never been either humiliated/abused by american soldiers or decapitated by Iraqi resistance, so I can't objectively answer that; however I really can't see my instincts taking over my mental capacity, since I haven't even felt real anger more than 2 or 3 times in my life. Of course I never say never, but then again it is my theory that this is crap; theories you can't prove, orelse they would be facts. As I said, I think it is crap, I don't know it.

Yes well, maybe then they should have waited for the UN's approval; last time I checked "the world" was represented by the UN and not by Bush Junior.

I never said there are no fucked up Iraqis that will seek revenge; of course there are. I never said they have the right to do it, either, cause they don't; what I said was that, if being in power makes the USA governement de facto world-cops, maybe that is why "now the USA is in an excellent location to fight nations that don't even hide their terrorist support"; if Iraq was in power, maybe the USA (or Greece or etc) would be considered as a location that breeds terrorists, and the Iraqi world cops would be out to exterminate us all, in the name of world peace; so, fighting against terrorism gives us the right to kill women and kids as well, in case they grow into terrorists; so I guess we can be as terroristic as we please, as long as we do it in the name of fighting terrorists (lol) and as long as we are, of course, in power...

Are you sure you're a P? Ps are supposed to be able to see both sides of a situation.



Just a thought.

Well, I think relaxo is definatelly a P... I don't think he doesn't see both sides just because he has an opposite opinion - in that case he could say that you or I are not Ps for not seeing the opposite side... we just choose our side and defend it. Even though I totally disagree with his view on things, I understand where it comes from. I understand cynicism (actually I appreciate it, because it is one step ahead in rationalising), and if someone chooses the cynical side it doesn't mean he is a J. I would think INTP 5w6 (sp variant though...) fits just fine in relaxo's case
(I might sound nuts - maybe not, considering where I am - but I do enjoy arguing with people that have totally opposite opinion to mine, when we can keep it peaceful and rational instead of insulting and pissing each other off...)

a few problems here:

1. The UN is full of dictatorships. They do not represent me. I consider them my enemy and so do the majority of the human race.

2. If America bred terrorists that attacked Iraq and Iraq had the ability to do something about it, they should in their own national interest. A nation can not sit by and wait for the UN which is full of dictators and their enemies to allow them to act in their own rational self interest.

3. America is not at war with Iraq, it toppled a dictatorship. 90%+ of the Iraqi people are happy about that, and 80%+ are OK with America temporarily occupying their nation in order to bring democracy (if this were not the case an nation of 23 million would not need syrian "freedom" fighters to topple 150,000 troops). America does not go out and on purposely slaughter civilians in case they are terrorists. That is a tremendous lie. Stop listening to jyhad radio.

The liberal college teachers would tell you that all that chemical attack gas originally came from the US anyway - which I suppose is believable, given how much we spend on weaponry and how much we give to other countries to keep the power structures in our favor (e.g., to Saudi Arabia in exchange for their oil). In that case, whether Iraq had them or not is irrelevant; if they did, it's our fault, so either way we were dicks for going in there.

Don't know how much of this is true, but one thing's for sure: I, personally, don't want to be stuck in Iraq (and die there) before I get to finish graduate school. I have my own life on the line if the draft is reinstated. (And yes, from what I heard women and students would no longer be off limits were the draft reinstated.)

OK, I'll bite. The USA governement though is not my governement, so I don't want them to decide for me - I mean if they start taking decisions for nations that didn't vote for them, how is a dictatorship worse than that...?

I really have no clue about how much of the Iraqi people's protests you get to watch on the news over there.... but honestly, I suggest you watch some foreign news source, just to check... your brothers and sisters in Iraq are being slaughtered over there, not for their salvations' sake (unless of course we are talking about an after death kind of salvation, which I bet we are not ) and not by Saddam - at least not anymore; soldiers shooting at anything that moves is really not a helpful hand out of a dictatorship. I honestly don't know why they would prefer the current situation even to the former one.

To this, I cannot disagree. I have repeatedly said that I envy America's educational system (ours sucks) for instance, and I surely never implied that if the ones in power were e.g. Iraqis or Greeks or whoever they would do things differently... people in power are always after more power, so I guess they tend to be the same more or less. I am not anti-american, for God's sake - it just so happens that the governement abusing power at this time is the Bushy one.

What the heck are you talking about The David and Goliath story is in the Old Testament and it is jewish history/mythology/whatever. And the strong doesn't necessarily have to be contemptible just for being strong - if that is what you understood, check again... the point is that, if we are to accept that the strong one is under no laws, no ethics, no nothing and can get away with anything just because they are in power, we are back to the jungle's laws - so much for human evolution.

(Btw, weak or not, I can't see you in INTJ shoes; they would be a bit too narrow I think )

And that's why, when I took the political compass test, I answered that I agreed with the statement that there are no civilized and savage peoples, only different cultures. My education in social studies and current events has shown that it's not uncommon for civilized peoples to out-savage the so-called savages at times! The coup in Iraq is but one example of many such gruesome tales.

Well I suppose so... but I was mostly referring to the potentials and the possibilities that exist... trust me, the limitation in what educational choices are concerned here, would be reason enough for me to get in a plane and move on the other side of the planet. If only it was possible *sigh*

Sure, if I could afford it.

I have no clue, since it would be too expensive for me to live there anyway... (we are off the topic, you know? )

Hmm... I thought I was going for something better than what I have here...

(We should find a way to create a chat room... we really should)

Sorry............

The USA sold 200 million worth of weapons to Iraq

France sold 5 billion (that's 5000 million) to them
China 5 billion
USSR/Russia 20 Billion


and drafts suck. if they want more fighters they should increase the wages. I'll agree no draft should be used with Iraq.

I think public schools always suck. Should all be privatized

America has great Universities though. Even if they are filled with anti-war loonies.


This is completely off topic, but I notice that gays seem to see Europe as some sort of mecca. A few of my friends go on and on and on about how great Europe is. I tell them to move there but they won't. They know we have it good here in North America. I have a few bones about Europe though.

1. move to a European city, get a stinky run down cramped apartment for an outrageous amount of money. No air conditioning, 10000 (?) die from a heat wave in France. Europe rocks.

2. America is always called fascist, but it's in France where 20% of the people vote for a fascist party. The Birtish National party and that fascist party in Italy. Spain and Portugal and Greece if i'm not mistaken were run by military style dictatorships within the last 30 years. And Eastern Europe, we know that story.

So Europe has nice old buildings that get bombed every generation because Europeans are so passionate about their beliefs and their nations. This whole EU thing is going to fall apart in my life time.

Well that's my rambling about Europe in our Nick Berg section.

jingoistic? fancy stinking word, think you're so smart...

Definition: [adj] fanatically patriotic
Synonyms: chauvinistic, flag-waving(a), loyal, nationalistic, patriotic, superpatriotic, ultranationalistic

bhaa! maybe fanatically capitalist. I'm not nationalistic at all, internationalistic.
I'm more contrarian. Don't forget I'm Canadian. My pro-American stance is because most Canadians are blatantly anti-American to the point of not even realizing it (kind of like racism).

socialized medicine. oh man. I know you Americans think it's a good idea, but you've got to come up here and see the shit system we have. I am not kidding on this one. Everyone agrees it sucks. The arguments are either there is not enough government money going into it or that we need some privatization (that's me of course). You could socialize it to a certain degree I'm sure without too much damage, but Canadians hold this universal health care crap like a religion. Any talk of allowing any sort of private health care makes you the devil. So I hail Satan!

I have too many personal horror stories about our system and how bad it is. And I know private hospitals have horror stories too but not to the extent we have. Our universal health care is killing us. My parents luckily live in the USA now, it's the only reason my dad is still alive because of private health care in the USA. He would have died up here.
In the year 2000 Americans waited 3 days on average for an MRI scan. In Canada it was 5 months. There is no excuse for this. The stats are quite depressing. Most Canadians will tell you it's great, still you start poking them about it. You can believe the herd if you want. When I get sick, I'm going to the USA. Rather complain about how much it cost to keep me alive.

You must be kidding. Why would an Iraqi prefer the current situation? That's a joke right? How many Iraqis have been killed by Amercians and other nations since this invasion started (not by fellow Iraqs or Syrian freedom fighters)? Still less than what Saddam has done.
And who protests? Religious fanatics? Ex-Baathists? Communists?


So I'm still not understanding the anti-"war" thing.
If it isn't an anti-USA, anti-strong, anti-capitalist thing, well, the numbers show Iraqis are better off without Saddam, so, ya I don't see it.
I consider this invasion to overthrow a dictator one of the greatest acts the world has ever done. I wish it would happen every year.

Out of curiosity, if the UN said it was OK to invade Iraq, that would be fine?

First of all, the world hasn't done it, Bush has. And well, I was wondering how I got away from that last question you posed for so long My personal opinion is that, unless someone asks for help, you don't provide it. You can't force salvation onto anyone, that is a freaking oxymore! That includes UN. So I hate what happened so many times in the Balcans, with the UN's approval. My opinion on the UN is that it is in reality a pretext for the ones in power to get more powerful, world peace etc being silly excuses.
So if the UN approved this invasion, I would still be against it; the fact that this invasion happened even with no approval though shows a big picture that is worse than just Iraq - it shows that the Bush mentality (or the army's...? ) is that, since we are in power, since no one is just as strong, since we have the weapons/the means/the money/etc, screw the world, we will get it our way and no one will do anything about it because they are not strong enough. Isn't it freaky? Does it sound like less than a world dictatorship to you...? If I am going to get rid of my national dictator, I want it to happen by my own free will, because an imposed democracy is no democracy by definition.
So yes, my problem is that up to now, the world dictatorship being balanced between many nations in the UN, it was still a dictatorship, but at least the conflict of interests would prevent some absurdities (not all - just some). Having a One Man's monarchy (or a One Government's, for that matter) means no veto can stop him from "saving" me from a situation I do not want to be saved from.

(Europe is no heaven. Has good points and bad points, just like every place in the so called "modern" world. You are exaggerating the negatives though, relaxo, just as Division is also exaggerating the positives... one more thing - for your information, I really don't know how much I would like this EU thing to work, because if it does, we will be the ones to occupy the word dictator's chair, which is something that will definatelly lead me out of and against Europe...)

PS: As far as the current situation and the number of Iraqis killed by soldiers is concerned, I strongly suggest you check on the foreign news offices...

OK, I kind of get your worry about a world power going around doing whatever it wants. The USSR made me worry, China still does. and France is the biggest screw upper in history. and France was democratic/capitalist. Sure I can relate now.
However, I still think Iraq is a good thing. If it didn't happen that would be fine. I bet if it didn't happen though, we'd be talking about Afghanistan instead. And Afghanistan is a no starter for me, their government got what they deserved and not enough of it.

I'd need to see numbers of estimated dead by Saddam's regime, and dead by American/Spanish/Polish etc... I'll take a look one day, however, I'm betting Saddam's numbers are at least 10 times more. And in the future, Saddam's numbers will now be 0.
And yes, many Iraqi's did invite the USA to invade.

I actually do read foreign news, well, Canada is the foreign news as far as this situation is concerned. Our news is blatantly anti-war, anti-USA.
Wherever the herd goes, I know there is lots of shit.
and anti-war protestors here burn flags, carry communist membership cards, dress in their anarchist wear ™ or chant death to isreal. So, I kind of know where I stand based on what my philosophical enemies think.

dude, what is the naming?!?!?
this is some sort religious thing?

When you hit 250 posts we give you a nickname. If you look at my post you'll see mine is "The Deviated Heretic".


I'm an atheist, and I'm the one who introduced the concept, so I don't think it's a religious thing.

Why?

Yay cynicism!

You're probably right. Stories of power and abuse thereof date back to the earliest nations of humanity...even small tribes do some awful stuff. Leaders of big civilizations will be just as brutal, if not more so due to their greater means. Human nature is just like the rest of nature, having a healthy dose of both sides of all those archetypal dualities.

That reminds me, I need to download the video.

Welcome.

small tribes have the highest amount of death by violence per capita. read about it one time, was a little surprised.

But the Iraqi with internet access may not be your average street Iraqi - he or she is probably much richer. The only way to find out how Iraqis on average feel would be to ask them all, or perhaps to ask a very diverse sample with representative numbers for each age, ethnic/religious background, gender, and social class.

He or she, likely being much richer, strengthens my argument I think. My intuition tells me that the richer class of Iraqis were likely successful under Sadam. The poorer obviously were not. Therefore the overall numbers are likely higher than my admittedly small sample.

My intuition also tells me that were I in their shoes, I'd be glad to be rid of the nightmare that was Sadam. I think I'd be greatful that someone finally said enough is enough. Damn the UN! Of course the news media tells me my intuition is wrong. Go figure...maybe my intuition is not as good as I think. Maybe the Iraqis really did prefer living under the thumb of the Great Sadam! errr...maybe not...

lol..me too

(Un)Fortunately, you and I aren't world leaders, so we must sift through the information we can access and determine what makes sense to us. We can neither make policy nor know all the reasons why policy is made. But we can debate and I for one enjoy doing so. Ultimately everything I've said here is just my honest opinion, and you have yours. I'm glad we both have the freedom to express our thoughts.

Did you just say "woman"...? *tears crawling up my eyes* SOMEONE FINALLY REALISED I AM A WOMAN!!!! Thank you man... you are I think the first and you just made my day

What? Who allowed women on this forum?

Well, I came in male disguise as you see...

No doubt

ROFL
~Tim

That is a great point. I don't really care if my country is the one in power or not.
I would prefer to have the "world-cops" be the people who are the least restrictive of my personal freedom, and Iraq doesn't seem like the best canidate for such a thing.
Even though our so called "freedom" is an illsuion, and secretly oppresive, its the least so world wise. All hail USA!

period

That is a point almost nobody can answer well I am certain. I for one would really like to here the explanation.

The UN is a pawn "government" regardless.

To keep the nukes at bay? We all know there are suicide bombers ou there willing to kill themselves! If they have this little consideration for their own lives, then certainly they are crazy enough to attempt to destroy the whole planet, if their beleifs rendered them.
Global Security would be the best reason for "world-cops". The UN is the world's cops, and usually a puppet of US policy.

Ieee Iee I....

Nukes are a decoy.

Ask any Navy Seal or Delta Force member if they would be willing to kill themselves in an attempt to "save' the whole planet. Any "extremist" tends to believe the same thing.

Global security would be the best reason not to have "world cops". Who do they answer to? Who holds them accountable? Who pays for them and is responsible for their budget? Under whose law would they be responsible.......

Hmm.... that's beginning to sound alot like the CIA.

There are millions of us! The conservative might actually win the election here next week. That's an end of 10+years of liberal government.

but I can't be right wing if I'm atheist, have gay friends, don't eat beef , and don't support massive conservative government spending projects.